Power of the Parent 14: S6 Ep14: Sleep and Parents in the Workplace

1. The gendered reality of sleep deprivation
2. The cost of ignoring sleep
3. Solutions for workplace inclusion through rest

Episode Transcript

Charlotte Speak  00:01

Hello and welcome to Power of the Parent, the Podcast. This series is a new format, and we are going to be focusing on a different topic each week, bringing you three things you need to know about, whatever that may be, mainly from an employer perspective. But of course, there’s plenty of reframing that parents could do to benefit from the content as well.

Charlotte Speak  00:22

We will be covering everything from parental leave transitions, managing boundaries, what to do when your talent pipeline looks a bit dodgy, tips on gathering feedback, and things like establishing parental support networks. So let’s dive in.

Charlotte Speak  00:39

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Power of the Parent, Three Things You Need to Know About … Today,I’ve got a pal with me, and I am talking to Nicole Ratcliffe, who is the Workplace Sleep Coach, and who is tenaciously building the conversation about the impact of sleep and parents in the workplace, which is, as you can probably imagine, a huge talking point.

Charlotte Speak  01:01

I remember becoming a parent, and in those early days, the only thing that people asked me was, oh, and how are they sleeping? And how are you sleeping? It was an obsession that I didn’t know existed. And I’m really, really excited that she’s here to talk to us today, because I think the thing that Nicole is trying to do in this space is combine some of those practical things that we can do for ourselves alongside what does this mean in the workplace? Because, let’s face it, we all know somebody who had a child that didn’t sleep a full night’s sleep until they were insert whatever age here. I personally was three, like not my children me, I didn’t sleep before night until I was three, so my mum so lovingly tells me still now.

Charlotte Speak  01:44

So we want to dive into why does this matter to you as an employer? Because it isn’t just, let’s file it under it’s just one of those things when you become a parent or have caring responsibilities. It is much deeper than that, and we want to try and break it down in a way that doesn’t feel overwhelming for employers. So I’m so thrilled that Nicole managed to squeeze me in, because I know that she’s got lots and lots going on right now, and she shared with me, ahead of the session, or ahead of this conversation, session sounds very formal, which it’s not going to be, but ahead of the conversation, Nicole shared with me the three things that she would love to talk about and that she thinks are really important for you to know as workplace and employers.

Charlotte Speak  02:25

So the three things that we’re going to talk about today, first of all, the gendered reality of sleep deprivation. Number two, the cost of ignoring sleep and number three, solutions for workplace inclusion through rest. So I’m going to stop talking, and I’m going to hand over to Nicole to talk about that first point, the gendered reality of sleep deprivation. Hi Nicole.

Nicole Ratcliffe  02:48

Hi Charlotte. And thanks very much for inviting me to join you.

Nicole Ratcliffe  02:52

Gosh, this is such a big topic, but it’s one that doesn’t get talked about because of how taboo it is. And I don’t think that it’s taboo. I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that at the end of the day, we accept that we’re going to become parents and we’re supposed to get sleepless nights, and everybody does it, and we’re supposed to just crack on with it, and we don’t think about the very real impact that it does actually have on us and the way that it impacts our mental health, and our physical health, and our workplace productivity.

Nicole Ratcliffe  03:23

The reality is that one in four women when they’re returning to work, were actually leaving you know. We’re looking at about the survey that I first did a couple of years ago showed that 27.8% of new mums are leaving the workforce, and we know from the statistics that it’s around 54,000 new mums every single year in the UK alone are leaving the workplace. But why? And it can’t just be I’ve become a mum, and I want to be a stay at home mum. There’s got to be more to it. And it’s like so what’s actually going on?

Nicole Ratcliffe  03:59

And if we look at the reality, as in, you know, how sleep is really impacting that, what the lack of sleep does to a person, then actually, yeah, we kind of have to be realistic about the fact that it’s impacting women more than it is men. And it’s a societal impact, you know, and it’s also biological. So sadly, we are still in a situation where, and this is the average, and we’re not saying this is all relationships and all men, and it’s really important to know that this is the statistics that are out there that are Google able. Women are taking on 60% more unpaid domestic labor than men, and that’s including things like the caregiving. So waking up in the night with children or looking after parents or whatever it might be, the mental load for housework 60% more, right? That’s a huge amount.

Nicole Ratcliffe  04:54

But society seems to say that this is acceptable and this is just how it is. And. We’re conditioned to think that because the mom’s the one that gets the long maternity pay, you know, they get the maternity leave. So actually, it must be the mom that picks all these things up. But that then never changes when they go back to work. So they continue with this full time job that they’ve had, plus their full time job, or if they’re lucky, to get a part time or flexible working job when they go back, but actually, is their child sleeping well enough for them to function well enough in that job? Well, the proof in the pudding is saying that actually, no, they’re not, you know, from the research. But then we’ve also so these are the societal aspects.

Nicole Ratcliffe  05:37

But then the other side where women are really struggling is the fact we then go through menopause. We’ve got biology going against us as well, you know. So we have society saying, women, it’s your job to actually pick up all the stuff at home, and then the biology is going, Oh, you want to go through a life change. Well, you don’t really want to, but your body’s going to go through this anyway. So we’re going to make sure that you’re not sleeping while that’s happening, and we’re going to really mess with you. We’re going to mess with your anxiety and your mental health, and we’re going to really sort of get in there and make you feel like you’re not worth stuff, you know, and that plays a huge part.

Nicole Ratcliffe  06:13

So we’ve really got to make sure that we are supporting women in the workplace, and not just women, but parents, and changing the narrative that actually women are the ones that have to pick up those pieces. And said, You know what, before the baby arrives, why don’t we educate better? Why don’t we prepare parents for what’s about to be so they put the best prep, you know, they’ve got the best support once the baby arrives, because they’re not, because this is the thing we’ve got so much of the expectation, not that matching the reality.

Nicole Ratcliffe  06:48

And the antenatal stuff is preparing us for that expectation, and when that reality is nowhere near what we thought it was going to be, that’s when we’re down a creek without a paddle and kind of going I wasn’t expecting this. Nobody told me about this. If I’d have known this before, I’d have actually made sure that had family around, or I’d have hired somebody to help with this, or I’d have done this differently if I had known and actually, what we should be doing is educating that better and before the baby arrives, so the communication between partners is better.

Nicole Ratcliffe  07:20

So when they’re going through those difficult patches, they’re not thinking that the other one’s biting at them. They’re a lot more understanding of the fact that actually maybe we’re just struggling because we’re not getting the sleep that we need, because that lack of sleep impacts our ability to regulate our emotions, impacts our confidence, impacts our productivity, our problem solving skills. It impacts every single part of us, and we need to start doing something a little bit different to make sure that we are supporting parents as a whole, but women specifically, I think, really niching down into this so they don’t feel like they have to keep going at that pace.

Charlotte Speak  07:58

And I think it is such a nuanced conversation, isn’t it as well, because you don’t have to look too far to see the stats that back up what you’re saying. That kind of that disproportionate, the impact on women. But I also get a feeling that there’s a lot of unseen conversation there, so things like some of those stats assume that parenting relationships, one are being done by two people. Because actually, what about those that are single or solo or co parenting, but also, what if you’re in a same sex relationship as well? What’s the impact there?

Charlotte Speak  08:32

Because I know that again, it’s an area that doesn’t get enough air time or research or money put behind it to look at some of the quality data that can then hopefully inform some outputs and actions. But I think when you’re talking about the I suppose, the more the personal side of the impact of sleep deprivation, the thing that immediate, like, where my brain goes to when you’re saying all of that, is how hard it can be to speak up if you’re in the workplace. And I suppose it works two ways.

Charlotte Speak  09:05

So one, you as the parent, male or female or non binary, or whatever, however you identify, it can feel really hard to say, I’m struggling. I’m tired, because you worry that there’s an impact on your career, or that somebody thinks that your ability to perform is so drastically reduced, and of course, that then takes us back to places of I’ve got to provide for my family, and if I don’t have a job, I can’t provide for my family.

Nicole Ratcliffe  09:33

Oh, don’t. That’s exactly it. Just to give you some statistics on that, this is some of the research that we’ve actually done, but 46% of parents, when they’ve gone back to work, have actually been afraid that they’re going to be seen as incapable because they’re a mum now, or they’re a parent now, and 37% have actually felt embarrassed to ask for help. Yeah, and that embarrassed bit is the bit that really gets me, because there shouldn’t be any embarrassment about the fact that raising a child is hard. You know, it’s harder than we could have possibly ever anticipated. So there should be no embarrassment at all.

Nicole Ratcliffe  10:09

The statistics are showing us that basically, 59% of parents are experiencing sleep deprivation up to six years after the birth of their baby, up to six years that’s a huge amount. And the statistic that really gets me was when I did that research, 40 was this the answer to this particular question, how old was your baby or child when they started sleeping? Well enough for you to function safely in your job not to do it well, just to function safely. 40% said between 18 months and three years old. An additional 22% said it was past three years old.

Nicole Ratcliffe  10:49

So we know what to that child turning 18 months old, 62% guaranteed were not safe to do their job. And that’s frightening, because if you think about workplace accidents, people driving on the road. Back to your point just before about people thinking that they’ve got to do their job. I was in a field sales job when I went back to work, and I was driving on the motorway, and I was having micro sleeps on the motorway. Now this is frightening to think about if you close your eyes for just three to four seconds, that four seconds on a motorway is driving the full length of a football pitch, that is terrifying. I used to do that all the time, and it was, there was no other choice. It was, well, you’ve just asked your job. There isn’t anything else. Get on with it. Or maybe you should be at home. Well, I’ve got bills to pay. What can I do? Nothing. I have to do my job.

Nicole Ratcliffe  11:46

So every day I and so many people go out there and I did that, and I’ve put my life and so many other people’s lives at risk. And you just think, why? Actually, if we educate better, and we support better. We don’t have to be in this position, you know, and yet you don’t realize it. When you are that person in the thick of it, you’re doing what needs to be done, because you have no choice. It’s survival.

Nicole Ratcliffe  12:13

And that’s why employers need to actually look at this in a different light and say, Actually, do you know what? We know that one in four months when they come back to work or leaving us, we know that this job requires them to actually be doing a lot of driving. How can we make sure that they are safe? What is it we need to do as an employer to make sure that our staff are safe to do the job that they’re doing, not even efficiently, just the basics that they’re safe to do it, and then we can at least build on the productivity after that, but get your foundations in.

Charlotte Speak  12:46

I think that, going back to the whole expectation conversation and the societal narratives, they are seemingly working against us, actively and working against employers as well, because it’s that, well, you’re going to be tired. You’re a parent, that’s just your life now kind of thing, and that it can feel infinitely harder as an employer to try and solve it when you’re in it.

Charlotte Speak  13:10

So if a parent comes to you and they’re a little while into being that shattered parent, if it feels like, not like a surprise, because, like I said, we all know that there’s an element of exhaustion and tiredness.

Charlotte Speak  13:22

But if somebody suddenly came to you and said, I’m really struggling, I need to make a change, but I still want to work, but my job is a field sales job, or My job involves lots of traveling and I’m just exhausted. It can feel really difficult, can’t it, in the moment? Because I think one thing we do need to make sure we acknowledge is that this isn’t a neat thing, is it? It’s not like here’s a magic checklist and an employer can nail this, because everybody’s got to be part of it, and we’ve got to be realistic that jobs do need to be done. We’re not saying that that’s not the case.

Charlotte Speak  13:56

We’re saying that we can do those jobs, but we might have to look with a slightly more fresh perspective, or remembering that some of this stuff is a finite amount of time. And you know, for one person, it’s a parenting situation and it’s sleep deprivation. For somebody else, they could have an injury or something happen to them that means they can’t do their type of work. I’m not comparing being a parent. We have an injury either way, but I just mean how you function could change temporarily, or maybe not so temporarily, and you can still be able to work, but it involves a greater depth conversation, doesn’t it about how we can make sure the two can coexist

Nicole Ratcliffe  14:35

Absolutely and that is the thing, when you’re saying that You’re comparing it being an injury. If we actually look at the statistics, nationally, one in three people forget the parenting side of things here. One in three people are struggling with sleep and 43% of workers are sleep deprived. We’re actually in the middle of a sleep epidemic. It’s getting worse. It’s not getting better. So as an employer, looking at. Sleep as something to actually invest in is only going to be of benefit. The parents are just another arm to it, and it’s how do we support those people?

Nicole Ratcliffe  15:10

I ran a case study with a business earlier in the year, and what we did because 69% of pet people who’ve actually said the reason for their fatigue is their children’s sleep. So what we did is we went in and we said, Right, okay, so let’s educate the parents about child sleep, because this is also what I do. My previous before this was supporting the children. So we put my sleep education courses in there, and work gave them half an hour a day to go through those courses and learn about sleep. They went away. They implemented strategies. They improved their child’s sleep, they improved their own sleep. They improved their mental health, their anxiety, and their workplace productivity, one of them by four fold. You know, who’s she said, work had got to the point of taking three to four hours to complete. I needed a second pair of eyes to cast over it. It was back to taking one hour because she was sleeping, and that’s the thing. And what is the reason that person isn’t sleeping? What is the reason behind it? Once you can kind of say, right, what’s going on in this person’s life, how do we help them? That’s when you can start signposting to the right areas.

Nicole Ratcliffe  16:22

You know, it might be that, actually that person is not sleeping because their financial situation is their thing, and actually it’s nothing to do with their child not sleeping. They’re just in an absolute mess financially. And maybe we need to help them by signposting them to a financial advisor that can give them some advice, and it’s understanding the underlying reasons behind somebody not sleeping.

Charlotte Speak  16:50

And ultimately what we’re saying here, then if I play back what you’ve just shared, there is a very real commercial reason to want to do this. It’s going to help you retain talent. It will help you save costs. And whilst there might be some points of investment, as in bringing in experts such as yourself, the longer term recouping of that is what’s going to outweigh the pain points up front, isn’t it?

Nicole Ratcliffe  17:18

Oh, massively, absolutely it can’t, not.

Charlotte Speak  17:22

Which leads me into the second point that you’re going to talk about the cost of ignoring sleep or sleep deprivation. Talk us through that one.

Nicole Ratcliffe  17:32

Well we’ve got different areas of this. We’ve got the cost of the individual, there’s the cost of the business, and then there’s the cost of society.

Nicole Ratcliffe  17:39

And when we’re talking about the individual, that cost isn’t necessarily just a financial thing. The cost for them is actually their cognitive function, their ability to regulate emotions, their physical health, because actually, without enough sleep, they’re more likely to make mistakes, their memory struggling with things, and they react more, gosh, even more emotional and impulsive in how they react as well, because we just are. And if you think about the dangers, you know, I’ve already talked about that four seconds on a motorway, but actually, 17 hours awake is the same. Your brain is working, the same as having had two glasses of wine. 24 hours a week, you are at the legal limit of being drunk. You know, it’s frightening.

Nicole Ratcliffe  18:25

So the impact for an individual is huge, but then you’ve got the business impact. So the individual, yes, there’s the cost impact if they were to lose their job, or if they’re not doing so great in their job because they’re not hitting targets, and it’s having the effect on their mental health, their physical maybe their relationships at home, and it’s also might be impacting their relationships in work as well, because obviously they work as a team, maybe, and if you’ve got people biting at each other or misinterpreting what their managers are saying, These things can have a real negative impact in the workplace.

Nicole Ratcliffe  18:56

But from a business’s perspective, Gravitate HR had done some work, and they came to think that actually, from lost productivity, it’s costing 1035 pounds per employee per year from lack of sleep. And as an economic side of things, it’s about 40 billion pounds per year in the UK alone from lack of sleep. It’s absolutely amazing.

Nicole Ratcliffe  19:20

And then you’ve got the risk of workplace accidents, which we know that 20% of workplace accidents are potentially down to fatigue at least. Well, what’s that doing to your insurance rates, you know? And got people on the road and gosh, again, you know you’re talking about, if you’ve had four hours or less sleep, you’re 11 times more likely to have an accident driving. But all these people are on the roads. They’re driving to work, home from work, they might be driving for work. You know, it’s a huge, huge thing. So there’s a business aspect to it there as well.

Nicole Ratcliffe  19:55

And also the big thing for me, when it comes to the businesses, there’s a blood test that’s been developed in Australia that can detect tiredness in the blood. Yes, I know it’s really, really interesting. It’s still in trial phases at the moment.

Charlotte Speak  20:10

For those that are listening, my eyebrows just shut up. That’s why Nicole was like, Yes, I know

Nicole Ratcliffe  20:17

There’s a blood test that they’ve developed in Australia, and they think it could be in the UK by 2025 and potentially be a roadside blood test by 2028. Right? Now, tired driving is illegal, and there’s also talk about it not just being the driver that’s prosecuted, but the employer. Because if an employer isn’t putting things into place to make sure that their staff is safe to do their job, or they’re getting them to do long shifts, you know, not the time between shifts. They’re not making sure they’re safe to do their job, they then become at risk of prosecution as well.

Nicole Ratcliffe  20:52

We are so good in this country at shutting the door once that horse is already bolted. What we actually need to be doing today is keeping that horse in and then shutting it and then saying, right, okay, you know, the horse is there. Let’s nurture it. Let’s look after it. We need to do things differently. We’ve gotta be more proactive than reactive. But, yeah, if that comes into play, we’re in a right old pickle, you know, if we don’t do something well,

Charlotte Speak  21:17

And it would be remiss of me to not just halt anybody, if you’re suddenly sat there listening thinking, well, that’s okay, we just won’t employ parents or anybody of child bearing age or who might want to grow a family. However that may come about. I’d just like to remind all of those people that think that’s the talent strategy. It won’t be because of the percentage of people in the workforce who are parents or have caregiving responsibilities. I’m nowhere near as good as Nicole at retaining stats in my brain, but it’s that over 75% of the workforce or parents who have caring responsibilities.

Charlotte Speak  21:53

And also to signpost to your earlier stat about it’s one in three people in the UK struggling with sleep regardless of their family setups. So this is a very real challenge for a whole workforce. So it isn’t that you can suddenly start thinking that it’s going to impact your talent or attraction or attention strategy, because I can just It’s okay, I’ll just pivot to try and attract a different group of people. That won’t be sustainable, will it?

Nicole Ratcliffe  22:19

So how’s that going to work anyway? You think about it realistically. We might avoid the parents, but then the women are going through the menopause the men are going through midlife. You know, they’re not going to sleep. And then you’ve got obesity risks and things like that, and more alcohol intake. And then you’ve got sleep apnea. You know, the older you get and the more weight you put on you become at other risks, it’s a huge thing. It’s absolutely hugely cut. There’s nowhere you can pinpoint and say, I’ll nitpick and pull people from certain areas. You can’t do that because it is an actual epidemic that we are in. We are in a sleep epidemic.

Nicole Ratcliffe  22:52

This is the bit that I get really, sort of passionate about, because this really is not just a loss for women if we don’t do something about it. It’s a loss for businesses and society by women leaving the workforce. And we know that diverse teams perform better. We know that they are more innovative, that drive greater profitability. So we need talented women to be in the workforce. So we need to actually support them.

Nicole Ratcliffe  23:19

Now, the bit for me is, I look at my daughters, who are four and eight, and I go, how would I feel if they were going into the workplace right now and in the future, potentially having a family? Would I be happy with how it looks? No, not at all. Does any of us look at our children and our grandchildren and feel comfortable with the layout as it is now that our children are going to get looked after, and their mental health isn’t going to suffer and their physical health isn’t going to suffer because of the way the setup is. No, I don’t think we are because we actually need to change it. So when our children get to that point, you know, of having a family or having a career, they’re not having to choose, and they’re not having to do that at the detriment to their own health. So yeah, it’s a societal issue this, as well, absolutely.

Charlotte Speak  24:10

So the final point that you’re going to talk to us about are the solutions for workplace inclusion through rest. So talk us through what we should be considering here as employers?

Nicole Ratcliffe  24:23

Okay, well, the most obvious one is flexible work policies, because at the end of the day, everybody’s situation is unique, so it’s what works for one isn’t going to work for the other. And that’s the key point. I think that we have to take care, because the amount of people I speak to that say, oh, we can’t do that, because if we let you do that, we’re going to have to let someone let so and so do that. Well, no, that’s fine. You don’t have to let them do that, because they might not need that. Do you not mean what they need is something completely different. What is it each person needs to make sure that, as a business, you’re getting the best out of that employee?

Nicole Ratcliffe  24:58

One of the simplest tips I can give, and it doesn’t cost a business anything to do this, is if you’ve got somebody who’s got a child that they’re picking up from nursery, because nursery is a long day, you know, we’re not picking them up till probably half past five. And actually, children probably need to be in bed somewhere between six and seven, depending on what their day’s been like. There’s no time for that family to connect. It’s all a bit of a rush. The child’s massively tired and dysregulated. If they’re really tired when they go to bed and they’re over tired, there’s been no connection time. Chances are they’re going to get a fight at bedtime. Their child might be up throughout the night because their cortisol levels are too high.

Nicole Ratcliffe  25:38

So actually, one of the things we can do, is say, do you know what, rather than leaving at five and getting stuck in all the traffic and picking them up, then why don’t you leave at four, miss the traffic, pick them up that little bit earlier, have some time with your child, reconnect, lessen some of these anxieties and bedtime worries that are there actually your child can go to a bed at a time that suits what they need to go to bed rather than being stretched and pushed, you’re going to get a better bedtime. They’re going to sleep better throughout the night. And that hour that actually it’s between four and five, probably isn’t the most productive anyway, because everyone’s getting ready to leave. You can do the hour in the evening, and the hour in the evening might be just something simple, like replying to a couple of emails, setting things up or setting things up for the next day, so when you come in, you can hit the ground running. That’s a really simple one, and it doesn’t cost anything.

Nicole Ratcliffe  26:31

And then we’ve got the other side, where training the managers up. Because this is the other side. A lot of people talk about toxic managers and toxic management, but actually, is it that, or is it the fact that the managers don’t know what they’re looking for? Is it the managers just don’t really understand what it is that they’ve got the power to be able to do, to support their team, and are they just following what rules they think they’ve got to follow?

Nicole Ratcliffe  26:56

So if we can educate the managers on understanding what sleep deprivation looks like. How might that show up within their team environment? Rather than putting them on performance improvement plans every month and making them feel like they’re being managed out of the business, what can we do to actually support that person so educating the managers and actually giving them tools to have coaching conversations, not you know, are you okay? Because as soon as you say, are you okay? I’m fine, I’m fine, everything’s fine, but as soon as you start questioning certain things, we then naturally put our guard up, because we think they’re trying to get rid of us. They’re interrogating us.

Nicole Ratcliffe  27:37

So how do we get it so the managers can have an open conversation with their employee without them feeling like they’ve been interrogated. That leaves that we kind of go, okay, we can possibly put this in place, and this in place. I’m not sure about this. Do you know what I’m going to go speak to my manager and see what we can do about this? And then everybody leaves going, Ah, I feel much better. I feel like I’ve been heard. I feel like I’ve just been listened to. And, okay, yes, we might not get all of these things, but if we can put a couple of things in place, it might make things that bit better.

Nicole Ratcliffe  28:06

Sleep education programs, like I mentioned earlier on, that we did with the other company with it was Atlanta group that we did it with, educate the parents about sleep so they can all start sleeping better. And it doesn’t even have to be about the children. Just educate about sleep, full stop to everybody, because it’s free. It’s a free tool that anybody can take by putting small strategies into place to improve it. But when the education piece is missing, people don’t know.

Nicole Ratcliffe  28:33

And then the other thing is normalizing these conversations about sleep. It’s okay to say, I’m struggling. It is genuinely okay to say that, because we’re human at the end of the day. And actually, Elliot Ray is an absolute beacon for all of this with this parenting out loud, you know, let’s talk about it openly and say, Do you know what? Yes, it is difficult. I am struggling a little bit. Or actually, do you know what I’m going to go and pick my child up from nursery. My wife’s working, you know, normalise these things. So actually, everybody gets the opportunity to feel heard, listened to and supported, because it’s normal, not the expectation that we’ve just got to crack on. So helpful.

Charlotte Speak  29:19

Incredibly. Thank you so much, Nicole for sharing all of that. I think it’s a really powerful message. I think it’s a very realistic one. I think you’ve given some great examples of some of those narratives that will be running through our head.

Charlotte Speak  29:34

And I think one of the things that I often find with employers is that they worry about some of those things that are running through their head that it makes them a bad employer, or it makes them a terrible individual for thinking those things.

Charlotte Speak  29:48

Something that I shared with a client earlier this week is that two things can be true at the same time. Yes, you can think they just need to crack on with it. It’s just a bit of sleep. Information, and you can also put things in place that are going to help somebody. It’s not ideal. We don’t want it to be minimized. We don’t want people to think it’s just somebody who needs a nap. It really isn’t that.

Charlotte Speak  30:13

But I think the more we can have better quality conversations about it, some of that preparation upfront, so we don’t find ourselves in the moment being presented with somebody who is so exhausted, so burnt out that we then were struggling because we’re pushing water uphill, as opposed to if we’d have gone back to the beginning or to those foundations and helped people and understand why it’s happening, as opposed to just saying, right, Where’s where’s the sticking plaster? Let’s go back to the beginning.

Charlotte Speak  30:44

So I’ve taken lots away from this. I really appreciate your time. If anybody wants to find out about working with you, and I know that you’ve got such a myriad of case studies and data and stats and research like no other, it’s incredible. How can people come and find out about you?

Nicole Ratcliffe  31:05

So you can head to my website, which is simply theworkplacesleepcoach.com, you could drop me an email hello@nicoleratcliffe.co.uk, but to be fair, I think the best place to find me is on LinkedIn. Nicole Ratcliffe with some ZZZs for my sleepy sense. That’s where I show up regularly and talk about what’s going on.

Charlotte Speak  31:26

Brilliant. Thank you so much, and you can find all of those links in the show notes as well. So thank you so much, Nicole, it has been a pleasure.

Nicole Ratcliffe  31:36

Thank you for having me.

Charlotte Speak  31:38

Thank you so much for joining me for another episode of power, the parent, the podcast, if you have got a few spare minutes, who am I kidding? Of course, you haven’t got a few spare minutes. But if you would like to choose to spend a few of your minutes giving me any sort of review or rating, I would massively appreciate it. It does help other people find it, and it also lets me know that I’m hitting the spot with listeners. For more free resources, you can head to the show notes, where you’ll find a link to the power of the parent website, or do head on over to LinkedIn and give me a follow search Charlotte speak and my grinning face should pop up until next time. Take care.