Power of the Parent 4: 4: Louise Deverell-Smith – Daisy Chain

Charlotte Speak  0:12  

Hello and welcome to Power of the Parent, the podcast. I’m your host Charlotte Speak. I’m a level seven CMI accredited coach, a Strengthscope Master Practitioner, Mental Health First Aider and talent consultant. And I’m also the face behind Power of the Parent. In this podcast, I’ll be speaking to parents in the workplace. Some of them are in traditionally employed roles, others are running their own businesses. And we’re having conversations about life in general, insights about being a parent and having a career and exploring the strengths that parenting has awoken for people. We will talk about things like the value that they’re bringing to the workplace, as well as my guests very generously sharing their personal stories and anecdotes about everything life can throw at us. Today, I am joined by the wonderful Louise Deverell-Smith, who our paths crossed, I think, as most people do right now via social media. And then we have got some mutual friends as well. But I’m so excited to talk to Louise. She is the founder at The Daisy Chain Platform, which is an award winning platform that connects parents with flexible employers. Louise was named The Rising Star 2020 winner in recruitment and HR. And she started Daisy Chain after over a decade working in recruitment to focus on helping parents find roles that work with their family setups. Louise is on a mission to help people find their ideal home and work balance and help employers to connect with some absolute hidden gems. So thank you for joining me today. Louise, have I captured in a nutshell, who you are and what you do?

Louise Deverell-Smith  1:53  

I think so. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for having me. It’s really great to hear somebody else say something that, yeah, kind of the journey that I’ve been through anyway, with Daisy Chain and yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Charlotte Speak  2:07  

Well, thank you for coming out. And we’ve finally done it. I think I asked you probably like last August time, when I had full intentions of doing this podcast much sooner. But you know, pandemics and all that. I think the part of why I am totally drawn to you as a person, but also to The Daisy Chain is because of your mission. And it’s so similar. I mean, obviously we work in different fields, but our mission is all about supporting parents and on the employer side of it as well. What’s your experience? So for yourself? So prior to setting up The Daisy Chain, you as a parent, the return to work process that you’ve experienced? How was that for you?

Louise Deverell-Smith  2:47  

Well, it was different after each child actually. So after my son, my eldest son was born over 11 years ago, I was kind of working for myself anyway, as a freelance recruitment person, and I could work flexibly, I could work part time, I did take, we had a nanny that started with us after my son was about nine months old. And so I went back to work kind of three days a week, but I was very flexible. And I could work from home days. And if my son had injections or something that I needed to be there, I just did it and I never had to report into anybody. And then after my second son was born, I worked for a recruitment company, in house, to help them find recruiters. And I was doing that part time. And I really felt like I was treated like a part timer, I wasn’t really valued. And this is a company that I had quite close connections with. So there was no reason why I should feel like that but I really did. And I would leave at you know, I’d leave at four o’clock or three o’clock some days whatever, you know, because I was working part time, but I always felt this kind of look of like oh, she’s off again, the part timer. And it was just a bit rubbish because I was getting paid to be part time. So I didn’t have to tell anybody why I was doing the hours I was doing. And then after my daughter was born, Daisy, I really, it had just been bugging me for so many years, I was meeting so many candidates that were kind of within my industry and saying look, I need something flexible. And I talked to lots of you know, my clients and other you know, recruiters and employers and they just didn’t want to engage. It felt like a bit too hard work to talk to these, predominantly mums, and it just really pissed me off really. So I thought after Daisy was born, I don’t think it’s because she was necessarily a girl or I don’t know, I just had this drive. I thought if I’m gonna do it, I’ve got to do it now. So my husband was in recruitment as well and we were both kind of chatting about or meeting all these, you know, these brilliant mums needing something flexible and he kind of spurred me on, I suppose to really build Daisy Chain, I needed a bit of confidence, I think behind me. And yeah, we went to some of the clients that we worked with in recruitment and said look, is this of interest, we don’t want to charge like recruiters, we want to take out that recruiter, and we want to build something around the tech of the platform that can help match and connect you with these talented people. And we had about five big corporates sign up without any candidates, which helped us build the platform, because that funded it. And it was always kind of a bit of a chicken and egg situation, you know, you need the candidates to attract the employers, need the employers to attract the candidate. So we had the employers first and then the candidates. I mean, as you’ll know Charlotte, the candidates are there, they kind of come, they’re out there. So we’ve been live for about three and a half years. We’ve got over 7,000 parents with us now, 99% of them are women. And the crux of it is they just want something a bit flexible. And everyone’s different. That’s the other thing I think is really important. You know, I think a lot of people think we’re just about part time. Part time isn’t, you know, lots of our candidates do want part time, but lots need full time, but they just need that flexibility. And everyone’s different. And it’s changed. I think the flexibility thing has changed over the last year.

Charlotte Speak  6:28  

Which leads me actually to my next question, and the thing that I’d be really interested in your thoughts on. Flex has been under the spotlight like never before. And I think like so many people wading into a conversation that have never been at the table about it, which is fantastic in so many ways. But then also, it seems to still be one narrative that flexible working this year has been described as working from home, for example. And again, and often part time coming to the table when actually, you know as Anna Whitehouse, often describes it as, we’ve been working from home in a crisis, and that changes who you are as a person. For most of us we’re parenting, it hasn’t been easy. Where do you think we will go with flex in the future? I know, there’s lots of I mean, who knows, we’re recording this, we’re about to get the next announcement for how we come out of our third lockdown in the UK. And who knows what comes out of that and what the world of work is going to look like. But lots of people have talked about the positives that have come out of it. What are your thoughts on how the conversation has changed over the last 12 months?

Louise Deverell-Smith  7:44  

Look, I think the whole pandemic, the positive for me has definitely been this, we’ve all had to work remotely, we’ve all had to rely on tech massively. And so for lots of businesses and decision makers, they’ve just had to do it. There’s not been a choice. And actually, they’ve been successful with it. I think, you know, from the start of this, I’d kind of always said businesses do have to be flexible on how they make it work for individuals. But the main positive is that we’ve kind of all done it, you know, and like I said, the tech has just been, you know, we’ve all had teething problems like where we’re all trying to get on a zoom at the same time. But that’s been a massive game changer. And I’m talking to lots of HR people. And for one particular company I could think of she has always wanted, she’s in HR, she’s always wanted to live by the sea. And she’s never felt confident enough to apply for it. And she’s in HR, so she’s kind of got the in. And she said, if it wasn’t for this whole pandemic, she wouldn’t have even considered applying. And she did about four months ago. Now she’s living by the sea, she’s making it work. She’s not a parent, that’s not you know, she just wants to live by the sea, and now she’ll be, you know, helping people in her business, have the confidence to apply for it as well. The other thing I think is interesting is that our parents, so our network of parents, we did a survey during the last lockdown, and we kind of said, what do you want after this? Do you want fully remote working, because we can all do it? Do you want to be back in the office and actually, the majority of our candidates said they want to be back in an office two to three days a week which is interesting because a year ago, I don’t know if my candidates would have said that. I would have thought they would all really like that remote working, work from home but like you said we’re now at home working with the children here trying to get them to do school. I think a lot of people after the next couple of weeks once the children are back at school fingers crossed, I think they’ll want to have that interaction with people. And that is, you know, it is really hard to have that interaction with your colleagues and people miss that water cooler moment don’t know they, when you have just a chat and actually, tech can help, can assist with that, but it’s just not the same. And lots of people need that interaction. But I think what’s been brilliant is that this whole remote working and online has gone across so many industries that maybe never would have really tried it before. I interviewed a doctor last week, and she said it’s been, you know, revolutionary for them. Because A, she gets a lot more appointments done. She said a lot of people I do need to see in the flesh, but a lot, she said I don’t. And she said before this that would never have happened. But it had to happen because she couldn’t meet them at the beginning of the pandemic. So there are lots of positives. But I think there’s also that balance people have to not, I mean, because we’re working from home, we’re working in a crisis, we’re working flexibly, the problem could be is, that people are just working all the time, and you’re not logging off and on. And I really liked your sign off on your emails, it’s brilliant just saying, look, I might not be working now because I work flexibly. And if you’re not working now, don’t worry, because you could. And it’s just I think that’s a brilliant kind of message to get out to people. Because otherwise people can just be working all the time and go to burnout.

Charlotte Speak  11:37  

Definitely. Thank you. I think I probably saw it on somebody else’s email, like years ago. And I think that’s the topic that I’m hearing a lot more from businesses that I’m working with. And then like individuals that will kind of slide into the DM’s on social media that we’re constantly on and that isn’t the brand of flexible working that we want is it? That really isn’t what it is about. I think that the other interesting thing is and obviously both of our niches are but definitely about parents. Where do you think this conversation might go more broadly than parents because of course, flexible working isn’t a parenting issue. We all have a reason to want to go home, or to work, you know, slightly differently to perhaps you know, what, what’s become socially acceptable. What are your thoughts or hopes around that?

Louise Deverell-Smith  12:31  

Oh, look, I think everyone, I don’t think people are gonna care if you’re a parent or not. It’s just gonna be like, do you want to work flexibly? And, you know, I know, in my husband’s business, like at the weekend, he said that one of his girls who’s worked a couple of years she’s moved to Birmingham. I said oh, so is she going to be back in the office? Is she working? And he said, No, no, she’s working remotely now. I was like, amazing. You know, she’s young, she just wanted to move in with her boyfriend, you know, she’s a young girl. And it doesn’t matter if she’s a parent or not. But she’ll help that other parent in the business now to think, oh, this business is open to talking about it. And I just don’t think it’s going to make a difference. And actually, because we’re all, I mean, I think after this everyone is going to be working a lot more remotely in the office couple of days, at home, I don’t think it’s going to come up that I’ve got to go because gotta go to nursery pick up or just don’t think people will even say it, because they shouldn’t say anyway, really, it shouldn’t matter. And that’s maybe a parent thing as well, we shouldn’t feel guilty about saying, oh, gosh, I’m sorry, I’ve got to leave on time today, because I’ve got to, you know, let’s just get past that. And I think a lot of employers now, this has also proved that which of their employees they really trust? Because that’s the other big thing, isn’t it about flexible working, you’ve got to trust people to do the work if you’re allowing them to work flexibly. And this whole 12 months, there’s proof, you really can trust them. If not, they probably shouldn’t be in your business anyway.

Charlotte Speak  14:06  

Exactly. And this is a conversation that I have with some line managers. I mean, prior to COVID, to be honest, but those that did have some sort of beef with working from home or working from a different location, basically somewhere that you couldn’t see your team or your employee, I’d be like, but how do you know that they’re going to work any better with your eyes boring into them? If you’re not looking at what they’re doing, which you know, let’s hope you’re not stood over looking at somebody’s computer screen, for example. They could be doing absolutely anything. The point is, we all have a job to do, they want to be paid. They want that security. Some very basic human needs that come with holding down a job aren’t there. So, it brings up a broader conversation I think about, it doesn’t really matter where you work if you’re doing your job and it’s very clear what you need to achieve. Let them achieve it how they need to.

Louise Deverell-Smith  15:01  

Yeah. And lots of these businesses as well are not going to be needing these big offices and the travel is going to, you know, to the environment that’s going to make a big difference. And I think for lots of people’s well being and mental health, it’s been quite a game changer, this, in a way. I’m not sure for the parents, because we’ve had all our children here. So that’s not been great.

Charlotte Speak  15:27  

Lou and I both had our heads in our hands before we started recording about how this half term is going, but we’ve kind of gone to an extreme haven’t we of having everybody battling for devices, if you’ve got them, worrying about exercise, getting some fresh air. We’ve been in a really strange time. And we’re kind of, we’re hopefully gonna start to have the option to reintegrate properly back with people and kind of middle ground of it’s the social interaction, isn’t it that people have hugely missed? And if we’d have, in a different world, if we’d have been able to do the homeschool stuff and have better childcare provision, for example. You know, right from that first lockdown, it was just, it was horrific for so many people, in so many different ways. And it’s just getting us to a place where we don’t want toxic positivity, I don’t think but what we want to say is, you know, where are the silver linings? What have we learned? Because if we haven’t learned something from the last 12 months, I think we’ve been doing it wrong. It’s not necessarily about the soul searching side of things, but the world of work, for example, how we can impact the environment positively, all that kind of stuff.

Yeah. And I think because lots of big decision makers have had to do this. They’ve done it themselves now they know it can work. And I think as well, the interaction thing, that’s what the kids need as well now. Because the tech’s worked for them for school, it’s worked. But it hasn’t worked for them as a whole. And school is not just about, for me, I don’t think it’s just about English and maths and doing it on a zoom, it’s just not ,we need this interaction. But even going forward that flexibility we’ve had with schooling, there’s going to be people that really benefit from that after this. It’s been really brilliant on that side of things. Yeah, like you said, we’ve got to take the positives away, because there are lots of negatives. Of course, there are lots of negatives, but the way we can all work going forward and it’d be interesting to see how, when our kids are working, how it looks for them.

Louise Deverell-Smith  17:48  

They might just be thinking, you know, they might go what you had to go on a train for an hour to go to work? We’d be like yeah, we did and we hated it.

Charlotte Speak  17:59  

Absolutely, they’ll be looking at us well weird aren’t they? Like, you did that for 10 years. Really?

Louise Deverell-Smith  18:07  

Yeah. But it’s got to change. And I think it definitely will, the only thing I’m nervous about is that we all, when we’re allowed out, we all go a bit nuts, and everyone rushes back to the office. But I think the majority of people will be sensible about how they work this flexible working to work for them. Because everyone’s different, aren’t they?

Charlotte Speak  18:26  

Yeah, I hope so. I hope it shows people that there are options, there are more than three ways to set up your week and hopefully just, I don’t know, I really hope it changes the relationships with people with schools and things like that as well.

Louise Deverell-Smith  18:44  

I’ve been working flexibly for three, four years. And this is nothing like what I’ve ever worked like before. Like nothing, really, I mean, I’ve always worked flexibly, I’ve never been on so many Zooms before. But I think, you know, after this, I’m not going to be going into London every day to have one meeting. There’s just no way, and I don’t think people will expect you to anymore, either. No, you know, how would we have met up and we would have met but it would have taken us both a long time out by date. You know, we don’t really need to do it.

Charlotte Speak  19:22  

No, I mean, my business this year has grown more than any other year and I mean, I’m only three years in, but I’ve worked with organisations that I never would have worked with before because organisations are looking differently at suppliers. And I’m not eliminated from those that are based in the South for example anymore, because we’ve been doing things virtually and that’s great. It’s great for me, but it’s great for everybody because you’re getting a different voice and like different options. So I would like to finish our session by asking you three questions, channelling my inner Giovana Fletcher, if anybody listens to the Happy Mum, Happy Baby podcast. But I really love this idea for just some closing thoughts and to hear people’s different takes on it. So, the first question is, can you share something you do to look after yourself.

Louise Deverell-Smith  19:23  

I love to have a bath. That’s my like, thing at the end of the day. I just have to have a bath. If it’s on my own, one of the kids, I mean, Max, my eldest, is definitely too big for that now, but Daisy, and me, we’ll have a little bath at the end of the day. Love to get my pyjamas on. I try to do some exercise. So I try to do yoga, I don’t get hung up too much if I don’t do it for a few days, or sometimes a week. But I do really like that time, I used to obviously go somewhere near our house before lock down, and now I’ve done it all online. And I’ve actually enjoyed it a bit more because it can be really flexible when I do it. I don’t have to stick to the timetable. And that’s about it really, we’ve got my little Scottish Terrier that I like to take out. She’s my, I have to say, got to take the dog for a walk, well actually I quite like taking the dog for a walk because I’m actually on my own. Because none of the children want to be bothered to do that. So yeah, quite simple, really. And maybe a glass of wine as well every now and again.

Charlotte Speak  21:35  

Sometimes the low maintenance self care is the way to go, isn’t it especially over the last year? Where we haven’t really had access to some of the higher ticket things it’s quite nice to to know that you can rely back on you know, get the Radox out and get yourself in a lovely bubble bath. My next question is, if you could go back and talk to the Louise who was becoming a parent for the first time what one piece of reassurance would you give yourself?

Louise Deverell-Smith  22:02  

I think probably to always go with your gut. And you’re probably always right. Even if people say you might not be. Yeah, I mean, it’s a funny thing, isn’t it? People say you’ve just got this mothering instinct. And I don’t think I am overly motherly. Like, I didn’t think I was that kind of person at all. But I definitely think now you can tell when something’s wrong, I can kind of sense it. And I don’t really, I think after my third, after each child, you do get a bit more chilled about stuff. So I definitely wouldn’t worry so much about the little things quite as much as I did. [Good advice for us all.] And also wouldn’t, I’d just be a bit more aware of how lonely it can be when you first have a baby. And even after you have two or three, it can be quite a lonely time when you’re with your newborn, you know, your husband’s back at work. We don’t have family nearby. So it was kind of, you do enjoy it but at the same time, it can be a bit boring. And I think I probably wouldn’t beat myself up. I’d tell someone not to beat themselves up too much about being a bit bored. Because it is a bit boring. And it is a bit lonely. 

Charlotte Speak  22:42  

Yeah, newborns are lovely to look at but they don’t do a right lot, do they? And finally, what are your hopes for parents in the workplace, kind of, I say in the future, but the future is now isn’t it? So now in the future, what are your hopes for us working parents?

Louise Deverell-Smith  23:41  

Well, I think that we need to get more women back into work or you know, at least getting promoted being, you know, helped by their employer to kind of go for promotions, give them confidence. And I think, you know, for parents, we’ve just got to kind of look at the younger generation that are coming through and just talk to them openly about maybe the challenges we went through and how you won’t have to go through that now because you’ve got this open, flexible working option ahead of you and make the most of it. Don’t ever apologise for leaving on time or not being at a certain meeting. And I think as long as parents can be flexible, and employers can be flexible, I think it’s just gonna be an easier working world for us all to be open and honest. And like I said before, I hope you know, in a few years we won’t even have to mention that we’ve got children or shouldn’t have to, because I think lots of people do think oh, you know, this flexible working as a parent thing and it definitely isn’t. I think the future is very positive. And in the next year, more women are going to be getting jobs because of that flexibility that’s going to be offered, for sure. And also I’d say, you know, women we have to kind of really collaborate together. So if you know people, help loads of people open up your network, you know, with other people, get advice, ask for advice, share knowledge. I think that’s definitely something women in particular are really, really good at. And for nothing in return, you want to do it because you want to help. And I’ve gone off track a bit there. Sorry, but yeah, we just need to collaborate, I suppose and just have each other’s back. And let’s not feel guilty about, like I said, wanting to leave on time or going to sports day, whatever it is. Everyone’s different, aren’t they?

Charlotte Speak  25:40  

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much Lou, if people are listening to this, and they’re like, right, I’m looking for a job, sign me up with The Daisy Chain, I want to be one of those candidates, where is the best place to come and find you?

Louise Deverell-Smith  25:53  

So we have got our pages on Instagram and LinkedIn, Twitter, but go to our website, www.daisy-chain.com. And all the live jobs are on the homepage, it’s free for you to join as a candidate. You don’t need a CV to join us, you can just create a little bio, tell us what you’re looking for in your next job, you can upload a video, which I’m really trying to get loads of people to do videos, I think they’re a brilliant way of really selling themselves. And yes, free to join and then you get matched with the clients that are on there that are recruiting and you can apply. And if you need any help, I’m always here to give a hand.

Charlotte Speak  26:32  

Amazing and if we’ve got some employers listening to this, and they’re like, yeah, we want a bit of Daisy Chain in our lives. We need some amazing candidates. Is it the same drill there, go to the website?

Louise Deverell-Smith  26:44  

Yeah, they can message me louise@daisy-chain.com. 

Charlotte Speak  26:48  

You work with some amazing organisations like who wouldn’t want to be on your website? I will put all of Louise’s social links and website and all that kind of stuff in the show notes. So if you didn’t catch any of that, just scroll on down and you will find them there. Thank you so much for joining me, Louise. It has been a pleasure. 

Louise Deverell-Smith  27:10  

Thanks for having me.

Charlotte Speak  27:12  

Thanks very much for tuning in to Power of the Parent, the podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please rate, review and subscribe. And if you could tell all your friends about the podcast that would be wonderful. If you’d like to get in touch you can find me on Instagram. Just search Power of the Parent. See you next time.